Summary of Last Night's Discussion - please add/emend/etc.
Topic: Consecration and the idea "no matter what you do, god will bless you."
To summarize the point we reached in the end - It is correct, God's intention toward us is good and will bless us in many ways. But if one chooses to do things he himself (she herself) plans out, God will still bless him/her, but he/she will miss out bigger (the best) blessings he/she could've had when the person totally surrenders to the Lord, obeys the Lord and let the Lord lead him/her. Buy consecration, we offer our lives to God and may He lead us, descipline us, mold us into the shape He wants us to be, and use us as vessels of different values. God's plan for us then can be revealed and realized. And His plan is better than any man's plans possible.
Follow up discussions with Ben:
We also need to plan, one does not simply wander aimlessly and call it ‘God’s best plan.’ Surrender is fine when one hears the direction clearly, but becomes very tricky in other circumstances. Try to walk close to God (keep vigilant) and man's plans are relatively closer to God's. Then keep an obedient heart in everything we plan (man proposes, God disposes). Do our best and let God decide the outcome. Obey when God says no, keep ones peace and joy always....etc.etc...
Any ideas to add to our discussion? =)
posted by Amelia @ 12:25 PM
8 comments
8 Comments:
I'd like add a few comments to Ying's statment "But if one chooses to do things he himself (she herself) plans out, God will still bless him/her". I'd like to put a question mark at the end of this statemtn. My past experience has shown me that when I chose based on my desire or preference, I was on my own and I was responsible for all the consequences. Only after I confessed my sins (being disobedient and rebellious) and repented, was my relationship with God reconciled. I then "receive mercy and find grace" from HIM. Ying's statement is true, but it does depend on our reaction after making our own choices.
God never asked us to lead a choatic life. Our life needs to be organized, and we do need to have plans. We then need to commit our plans to God's hands and ask for guidance as we carry out them. And in the Spirit of obedience, we ought to be ready to change our plans any time we find out they are not of God's will.
"Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. - James 4:13-16
嗐、你們有話說、今天明天我們要往某城裏去、在那裏住一年、作買賣得利． 其實明天如何、你們還不知道。你們的生命是甚麼呢．你們原來是一片雲霧、出現少時就不見了。 你們只當說、主若願意、我們就可以活著、也可以作這事、或作那事。 現今你們竟以張狂誇口．凡這樣誇口都是惡的。
I am not sure there are gray areas when it comes to God's plan and will.
Could you ellaborate "Try to walk close to God (keep vigilant) and man's plans are relatively closer to God's. "
I'm not sure what are the gray areas you refer to? God has His will and plan, period. Man's plan for himself pleases God to different degrees based on how close his plan is to God's will. Without an obedient heart, man's plan for himself could be far from God's will. By keep reading the Bible, praying constantly, communicating with brothers and sisters, one keeps himself close to God, then the plans one makes are likely to please God more and be closer to God's will. If one completely surrenders to God, then he takes God's will and plan as his plan for himself. Thus to walk close to God is seeking His will and trying to make decisions that please Him. God's will and plan for a person's life is definite, it's man's understanding and effort to follow that are not always on the right track. And that's why we need to keep close to God always.
(Hopefully I made it clear....)
Yup, I got your point. Thanks :)
It seems there are gradients in belief about these matters. For instance, some people believe that God has only the most vague plans for their lives, a system of values like 'love thy neighbor' which can be worked out a million different ways as a person lets the interaction of taste, ignorance, judgement calls and emotions filter in day to day. The opposite person believes that God has a particular opinion about every little thing, from whether the egg is sunny-side-up or scrambled this morning, to who exactly to marry and when. God's plans get modified and degraded with each tiny deviation, all of which are caused by sins of pride, selfishness, etc including the general 'not walking with God' that prevents us from somehow using the right logic to discern His will in every little detail.
The impact of these views on our peace and our piety can not be overestimated. Certainly, in the extremes, they result in different notions of how to live. There seem to be verses and passages at both extremes.
It is for this reason that I would recommend a middle ground, presuming that these passages are acceentuating an extreme against the contrasting extreme, rather than being examples of the balance each themselves.
God's sovereignty is such that He has provided us with tastes and inclinations. Furthermore, many of the options we face each day are fundamentally neutral with regard to our values, especially given the background of larger sins that corrupt our every thought and deed in subtle (or not so subtle) ways.
For an extreme example, does God care whether we choose to smoke cocaine or inject heroin? Probably not, because by the point that we have reached that decision, we are so far from His intention that the details are hardly worth quibbling over.
One of the big problems with the extreme sovereignty view is that it encourages us to pursue divination to discover God's views. The only successful cases in which God encouraged biblical divination were extremes - like Gideon, risking the lives of his entire family.
Further, it encourages us to try to figure out whether God is punishing us for little violations of His will, overlooking the big ones. It makes everything, in fact, into a situation of our controlling our destiny against a backdrop of imperceitible and unknowable, seemingly arbitrary will of an omniscient, all powerful, insufficiently communicative, and harsh God.
However, the extreme of the other
view leads to an absentee God with a generally benevolent outlook and a good set of life principles, but no involvement in the details. Nothing could be further from the examples of the Bible, in which God seems to care about some very particular things, old and new testament.
At the same time, balancing this view with the other pushes us to plan our lives using sound principles such as loving each other, sacrificial giving, fear of the Lord... and these cascade down into the depths of our decision making process. Do we spend the extra dollar on a more fancy sandwich, or eat something more plain? Could that dollar be used more productively elsewhere? As Wesley said, "Earn all you can, Save all you can, Give all you can."
Or what about the small choice of words in a discussion? Are you thinking about the other person? How about the glory of God?
Maybe God doesn't really worry so much about the details of the choice, in light of our sinfulness and ignorance, but blesses the approach to the decisions itself. Follow your taste when choosing ham or salami. Follow your taste when painting the walls - but be considerate of other people, investment value of the property, and so on. It doesn't matter so much who you marry, as long as the decision is well planned and thought out, made in prayer, and with humility.
So, small decisions to big, there is a consistent outlook on how the big principles impact the plans and decisions.
Great discussion guys!
God's will ultimately is for us to be more and more like His son Jesus Christ. How? We are not to wear the same clothes, eat the same food, speak the same language or work the same job as Jesus did. To be more like Jesus Christ is mainly in the ways how we handle things, how we love and live. I think we need to consecrate ourselves to God and let Jesus Christ be the king in our lives. Pray for Him to teach us and guide us. The Holy Spirit in our heart will then let us know what to choose, what to do when it comes to little details in everyday life.
It might feel scary after consecration that first things would all go out of one's control, it is a process of letting go one's own control and let God take control of ones life. One most important thing is keep praying. Otherwise one would get lost and really have one's life become aimless. By praying, we can hold on fast to His hand so that He would guide us, protect us, and relieve our burdens, exchange it with His blessings.
What? Not wear the same clothes? So that part about the man with two tunics isn't to be taken literally and legalistically? Geez... and I just went out and bought a bunch of tunics... ;)
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